JANUARY 1988 - #15 +-------------------------------------------+ <<-----<>----->> | | | L OOOO OOOO PPPPP | A LOOP FAMILY | L O O O O P P | INTEREST GROUP | L O O O O P P | NEWSLETTER | THE L O O O O PPPPP | | L O O O O P | <<-----<>----->> | L O O O O P | | LLLLL OOOO OOOO P | Victor L. Bennison | | 2 Georgetown Drive | SSSS CCCC OOOO OOOO PPPPP | Amherst, NH 03031 | S C O O O O P P | | S C O O O O P P | <<-----<>----->> | SSS C O O O O PPPPP | | S C O O O O P | 4 issues yearly | S C O O O O P | January, April, | SSSS CCCC OOOO OOOO P | July, October | | +-------------------------------------------+ <<-----<>----->> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! EDITOR'S NOTE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I recently wrote to Hank Jones, Jr., author of "The Palatine Families of New York". This wonderful reference work traces the first few generations of the Palatine families that arrived from Germany in 1710 (too early for our Loops). Hank is now writing a second volume that will deal with the second wave of Palatine arrivals, to which group most American Loops belong. I sent Hank copies of most of the back-issues of the Scoop, and he has provided me with some very useful information, including a copy of the Beilstein Census records which include the towns around Bad Marienberg for the years 1650, 1665, and 1711. Hank writes: "I appreciate the copies of your family newsletter very much. I want to commend you again for putting together such a fine, scholarly (and yet lively) family bulletin! How I wish all Palatine family organizations had such a wonderful and well-documented publication!" I want to pass along some of that praise to all of you who have contributed so much to making the newsletter a success. As I have said many times, I couldn't do it without your help. We are very sad to learn of the death of Helmut Teibach, who has been so instrumental in our discovering the German origins of our Loop family. I will greatly miss his enthusiasm and dedication to tracing the Lupp roots. His passing will leave a large hole in our research network. See the Notes and Announcements section, plus the Appendix to this newsletter for translations of the last three or four letters that he sent to me. Subscription rates are $15 for one year, four issues July, October, January and April. The next volume will be Numbers 13 through 16. If you are retired on a fixed income and would find the $15 to be a hardship, you may subscribe for $5, as in the past. (c) Victor L. Bennison, 1987 ****************************** ARTICLE ********************************* The Immigrants - The Family of Christian Lupp of New York Victor L. Bennison [A draft of a chapter from "The Early Loop Family in America", in preparation, (c) 1987] As far as we have been able to assertain, Christian Lupp, one of the four immigrant sons of Jacob Lupp of Langenbach, was the first Loop to set foot in this country. Though we have no ship record of his arrival, we can pinpoint his date of arrival to within a few months. His son John was christened in Langenbach, Germany, on 1 MAY 1737, and his wife is listed as one of those present on 16 OCT 1737 at the christening, in New York City, of a child born at sea. So Christian Lupp and his family arrived in New York City sometime between May and October of 1737, probably nearer to October. Also witnessing the christening was Elizabeth (Loop) Cooper, who was the wife of Martin Cooper and was probably Christian's sister born in 1717. These people do not appear again in the New York Lutheran Church records, so it is likely they had only just arrived and only stopped long enough to christen the child born at sea, before moving on up the Hudson River to the settlements. Christian Lupp was born in Langenbach, Germany, in 1695, the first child of Jacob Lupp and Anna Elizabeth Ross. He married Anna Maria Filger before December, 1728. There were several Filger families living in the Bad Marienberg parish at the time. No marriage has been found for Christian and Anna Maria even though the parish marriage records for that period are complete. We know, however, that his father Jacob went to East Prussia sometime near 1725 with nine members of his family and returned before 1728. There was also a Heinrich Filger from Marienberg aged about 50 in 1725 who went to East Prussia at the same time with four members of his family. His daughters included a Catherine Maria and a Catherine. It is remotely possible that this Catherine Maria later called herself Anna Maria to avoid confusion with her sister. If she was Christian's wife, then she was only 16 years old when their first child was born. I suspect there is some other Anna Maria Filger involved. Christian Lupp and Anna Maria Filger had at least seven children, about half of them born in Germany, and the rest in New York. Their last child we know about was born in 1747. On 13 DEC 1747 Christian Loop is listed in the Livingston Papers as a debtor of Germantown, NY. We have no record of the couple after that date. No death records have been found yet for either Christian Lupp or his wife. It is generally assumed that they both died in Columbia County, NY. In 1728, the same year that Christian Lupp's parents' last child, Sebastian, was born, Christian Lupp and Maria Filger gave birth to their first child, Catherine. (If they had an earlier child, it was not christened in Bad Marienberg, but could have been born in East Prussia.) A sponsor at Catherine Lupp's christening was Peter Filger's wife Catherine. It is tempting to think that this Peter and Catherine are Maria's parents. This Peter and Catherine Filger did have a daughter Anna Maria. But she married a man named Greb, and we have no record that he died in Bad Marienberg or went to East Prussia with the others. Also, it was not customary in the Bad Marienberg parish for grandparents to serve as godparents. It was very common, however, for a child's uncle or aunt to serve as a godparent. Probably, therefore, this Peter Filger was Maria Lupp's brother or possibly her uncle. It is most likely that Catherine Lupp, the daughter of Christian Loop, is the Catherine Loop who married Barent Denny of Claverack, NY. Their daughter Jannetje (Janet or Jane) Denny was named after her godmother Jannetje Loop, who was probably the 17 year old daughter of Christian and Maria (see below) making her Catherine's sister and the child's aunt. Barent Denny and Catherine Loop had 11 children, the last known date of birth for any of them being in 1764. Barent Denny died in 1803. We do not know when Catherine (Loop) Denny died. Christian Lupp and Maria Filger's second child was Johann Peter Loop, who came to be known in the family (when is uncertain) as Capt. Peter Loop. Capt. Peter Loop's tombstone claims he was 101 years old in 1824, when he died, placing his birth in 1723. This information has become legend in the family. It is almost certain, however, that the Johann Peter Lupp born in Langenbach on 12 DEC 1732 is Capt. Peter Loop. Perhaps a simple clerical or mathematical error made by the tombstone engraver accounts for the erroneous data on the tombstone. Capt. Peter Loop married three times. He sired eleven children by by his first two wives. He did not have any children by his third wife. His first wife was Cousia Springer. She had seven children. She died sometime between 1769 and 1776. Peter's second wife was Maria Bailey. We don't know much about either of his first two wives, but there is one intriguing record in Trinity Church, New York. Baptized on 2 NOV 1755 is Maria Bayly, daughter of William Bayly and Deborah Springer. This Maria Bayly would have been 21 when Peter had his first child by his second wife Maria Bailey. Could Peter have married his first wife's niece? An interesting long-shot. Peter's second wife died after 1783. Peter took as his third wife Prudence (Moorhouse) Bushnell, the widow of Jesse Bushnell. She was the daughter of Thomas and Prudence (Wright) Moorhouse. She died in 1828, aged 89. Capt. Peter Loop died in 1824 leaving a will dated 1816 in which he mentions all his known childen except one. His children will be discussed in a subsequent chapter. There is some confusion as to Capt. Peter Loop's military record. I can find no Revolutionary War service that can be definitely tied to Capt. Peter. There is a Lt. Peter Loop, Jr., mentioned as an officer in 1781 and again, in Willet's regiment, in 1782. But why the "Jr."? We know of no older Peter Loop in the country. Peter's son Peter, Jr., whose exact birthdate we don't know, would have been around twenty years old at that time, somewhat young to be an officer. But we know that Peter Loop, Jr., was a very capable leader. He was a commissioner for the Susquehanna Company, and in 1786 he is even referred to as Capt. Peter Loop, Jr., in the Susquehanna Company papers. He was also an attorney. It is possible that Peter Loop Senior was a captain in the French and Indian Wars. He enlisted in 1767 with his brother John in Hogeboom's company of militia. We have no record of what rank he might have achieved. On the other hand, it is also possible that Peter Loop, Sr., has, in regard to his military rank, become confused with his son Peter Loop, Jr. Christian Lupp and Maria Filger's third child was Elizabeth Maria Lupp born in Langenbach, Germany in 1734. She is probably the Mary Loop who married Gershorn Darly and whose child Mary was baptized in 1760 in Claverack, NY, where Barent Denny and Catherine Loop baptized several of their children. Their fourth child, and the last of their children born in Germany, was John Loop, born in 1737. John Loop married a woman named Ruth, surname as yet undetermined. They had four children baptized in Linlithgo, NY. The whole family then disappears. It is possible that the family moved to Canada, as their first child's name was Joseph, and the name Joseph appears in at least two of the Canadian lines. The next child of Christian and Maria Loop and the first of their children born in this country was Hendrick Loop, later known as Ensign Hendrick Loop. There is no hard evidence that Ensign Hendrick was their son, but there is much convincing circumstantial evidence to that effect. (1) There is no evidence that there was any other Loop family in the country in 1740, his approximate year of birth based on a muster record of 1760. (2) Among his children's names were: Martin, Peter, John, Maria, and Catherine, all names of his aunts and uncles assuming he is Christian's child. His other children were named: Henry, Nelly, Andrew, Joanna, Elizabeth, and Rachel. They were named for himself, his wife, his wife's father, mother, and two sisters. (3) He served in Hogeboom's Company of Militia around 1760 the same company that in 1767 saw a Peter Loop and John Loop as enlistees, almost certainly Christian Lupp's sons Peter and John. (4) Sponsors at the baptism of one of his children are Jacob Hoagteling and his wife Jannetje Loop, Christian Lupp's daughter. (5) Capt. Peter Loop, Mary (Loop) Kilmer, Catherine (Loop) Denny, and Hendrick's wife's parents were all attending the same church at Claverack, NY, at about the time that Hendrick married. This information paints a pretty convincing picture, so until contradictory evidence is discovered, we will pencil in Hendrick's name as a son of Christian Lupp. According to the Hogeboom's Company muster record, Hendrick was "born in Fishkill", though I have seen one source that quoted the record as saying that he was "from Fishkill", a very different matter. The parish registers for Fishkill for around that date list no Loop's. Soon after his marriage to Eleanor (Nelly) Sharp (or Scherp) around 1762, he moved his family north along the Hudson River, eventually settling in Schagticoke. His sister Jannetje (Loop) Hoagteling came along with her family. Ensign Hendrick Loop's children will be discussed in a subsequent chapter, in which I will also discuss Hendrick's interesting military career. The sixth child of Christian and Maria Lupp was Martin Loop, born in 1741. We know nothing further about this child. There is a Martin Lupe listed as "alone and sickly" and unfit for military duty in Livingston Manor in 1776. Christian's brother Martin was married with a large family at that time. Capt. Peter's son Martin was only ten years old. And we don't know of any other Martin Loop around at that time. So it is possible that this is Christian's son Martin. There is no evidence that he left a family. The seventh child of Christian and Maria Lupp was Jannetje Loop, born in 1744. As mentioned above, she married Jacob Hoagteling, probably the Jacob, son of Jan and Jannetje Hoagteling, born in 1740 in Linlithgo. After her marriage, she and her husband settled near her brother Hendrick in Schagticoke, Rensselaer County, NY. We know of four children: twins Hendrick and Jacob Hoagteling, born in 1771, David Hoagteling, born in 1776, and Adam Hoagteling, born in 1779. All were christened in Schagticoke, Rensselaer County, NY. The last known child of Christian and Maria Lupp was Eva Loop, christened in 1747, in Loonenburg, Greene County, just across the Hudson River from Columbia County. She married George Kilmer. They had at least one child, John Kilmer, christened in Linlithgo, NY, in 1781. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++VITAL DATA +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 1. From the index to Deeds, Ontario Archives [I don't know what all the abbreviations mean]: 1789 John Loup, residence Augusta, lot 1/2 18, conc. 1, date id 2, issue date 1789C ND, transaction type: FG, FG type OR Deed No., Archival reference 01 AIV 008 093 1790, 1800 William Yerx, Sophiasburgh, issue date 1790C, archival reference 01 AIV 009 065 also 01 AIV 009 073, also in 1800 01 AIV 011 077 all in Sophiasburgh. 1818 Nathaniel Loop, Hallowell, residence Hallowell, lot F,G,SPT H, conc. Gorek, transaction type L, date id 8, issue date 18180921 ND, type FG CR Deed No., archival reference 01 CII2 007 053 1818 Hugh Kennedy, Hallowell, residence Hallowell, lots D & E, conc. Gorek, date id 8, date issue 18180921 ND, trans type L, type FG: CR Deed No., archival reference 01 CII2 007 040 ?? William Yerx, Moore, residence Hallowell(T), lot W 1/2 16, conc. 10, date id none, issue date ND ND, type FG: M Deed No., archival reference 01 CI3 133 082 1830 Jacob Lupp, residence Hallet, lot 15 & 16, conc. 1, Date id 6, issue date 18300201, transaction type s, type FG: Deed No., Archival reference CC B3 019 012 (that's RG, Series, Vol., Pg) 1837 Joseph Loop, Caradoc, residence ___, lot N 1/2 16, conc 3., date id 5, issue date 18371025 ND, trans type S, type FG: CR Deed No., archival reference 01 CII2 007 053 1842 Mary Yerex, Hallowell, date id 8, issue date 18421222, archival reference 01 CI3 085 075 2. 1851 Census of Elgin County, Ontario, Malahide Twp, p. 58: 30 Mordica Loop, broom maker, born Canada, no religion, age 30 next birthday, 1 1/2 story frame house with 1 family Electa Loop, married, age 30 (or 20?), no religion Cynthia Loop, single, age 3, born Canada Eli Loop, single, age 1, (female? hard to read), born Canada. 34 Nathaniel Yerks, broom maker, born Canada, age 25 next birthday, single Letella Brown, born New Brunswick, Baptist, age 53, married 36 William Loop, broom maker, born Canada, age 28 next birthday, no religion, 1 1/2 story log cabin with one family Mary Ann Loop, married, age 24 3. 1851 Census of Elgin County, Ontario, Dorchester Twp, p. 37: 16 Steven York, farmer born Canada W[?], no religion, age 24 next birthday, 1 story log house with one family Jacob Preffer, servant, born US, age 50 Thomas Robinson, servant, born Ireland, age 22 Lucy Loop, servant, born Canada W[?], no religion age 38 Fernando Loop, born Canada, age 10 James Loop, born Canada, age 3 Elizabeth Loop, born Canada, age 7 4. William H. Loop sent me his transcription of the records in a Bible in his possession given to him by a cousin. The Bible belonged to Kirk Patrick Loop, son of Joseph Lewis Loop: Received this information from Harve Loop - Morristown, Tenn, 1911 Loop Family Tree John Philip Came from Holland to Va. about 1790 Jacob daughter Jacob Lewis James John's family born in Va. Alex Jackson Harve 3 - daughters John James Joseph Alex family born in Va. Adam 2 daughters Joseph's family - Kirk, Erwin, Wm., Frank, Ross, Joe - one daughter Rose Joseph born 1851 on Prodshaw Creek, Montgomery County, Va. His family born Clairborne County, Tenn. ?????????????????????????????? QUERIES ????????????????????????????????? Please send responses to queries to the Loop Scoop. I will relay them to the person asking the question. 1. Henry H. Loop was born in New York between 1827 and 1836. He does not show up in Chautauqua County until the 1855 census of that county. There he is listed as the adopted son of Nicolas Thum and his county of birth is listed as unknown. He married Luana Marsh and lived in Chautauqua County until his death in 1911. On his death certificate his father is listed as John Loop. No mother is listed. Questions: Where was he born? Who were his parents? - Vick Bennison 2. Family info indicates father of Peter H. Loop b. 1766/7 d. 1855 Sandusky Co., OH, was Peter Loop Sr. b. 1743 Schoharie, NY, d. 1843 Woodstock, IL. Other info places Peter H. as the son of Ensign Henry Loop. Has anyone found records of a Schoharie NY Peter Loop, of a Peter Loop dying or buried at Woodstock (McHenry County) IL, or a marriage record of Ensign Henry's son Peter? My Peter Loop married Rebecca Gilbert, supposedly in 1790 at Schoharie, NY, and his tombstone has Peter Loop, JR. 1766 - 1855. - Joanne Ellis 3. I am seeking the parents of Jane Loop who married Jonathan Andrus (Andrews) of New York. Their child, Polly Andrews, born 3 APR 1791, died 17 DEC 1872 at Windsor, NY, she having married Ezra Barton on 28 NOV 1808 in Broome County, NY. Is there proof that she is the daughter of Peter Loop and Couysa Springer? - Dee Merritt 4. Who were the parents of Almond Loop, where and when were they born? Did he have any brothers and sisters? Almond was born 27 FEB 1828, in New York State, where? He was married in Bradford, Penn., to Mary Melissa Moore, 22 JAN 1850. They lived in Penn., until 1865 when they moved to Manchester, Iowa. He died 27 JUN 1912. I would like to know the parents of Mary Moore, where and when they were born. Mary was born in Jamestown, New York, 6 JAN 1836 and died 23 OCT 1901 in Iowa. - Vola Carter 5. Need maiden name, date/place of birth, date/place of death of Naomi (Barlow) Loop, wife of John L. Loop. Need date/place of birth, date/place of death of Ezra Loop, son of John L. and Naomi Loop. Ezra must have died between 1870 and 1880, probably in Richardson County, Nebraska. - Virginia L. Bachofer 6. [From the New York Biographical and Genealogical Record:] LOUP - WILSON. Parents and family of Mary Lane Loup, born about 1826, who married Robert B. Wilson of Bradford, [McKean County], Pennsylvania, about 1847, moved to Illinois 1858-1860, thence to Jessup, Iowa. - Mrs. R. J. Malone +++++++++++++++++++++++ NOTES AND ANNOUNCEMENTS +++++++++++++++++++++++ 1. This note from Debra Loop Maier: "Helen Loop Golab died of cancer Oct. 11, 1987. She is buried in Oak Hill Cemetery near my Dad." Our condolences. 2. The information from the Ontario Deeds index (see the Vital Data section) is very exciting. You may recall that Capt. Peter Loop's sons Benjamin, and Nathaniel disappear from U.S. records. We found a Benjamin, in Hallowell, Ontario, with wife Agnes Kennedy, having a child Ann. Now we find a Nathaniel Loop there at about the same time, as well as a Hugh Kennedy. Also, we previously had a Christine Loop marrying a John Yerex. I had speculated that because their first two children were named William and Nathaniel, that her father was Nathaniel Loop and his father was William Yerex. Now we find a Nathaniel Loop and a William Yerex both in Hallowell. I also think that Ira D. Loop, who also named a child Nathaniel, is a son of this same Nathaniel Loop. I still can't put all the puzzle pieces together though. There is one reference (a county history) that claims Benjamin Loop who married Agnes Kennedy had a brother Joseph and that his father was born in Germany. This could possibly make him a son of Christian' son John and his wife Ruth, who had a son Joseph born in 1763 and were still having children as late as 1782. Furthermore, the tombstone birthdate for Benjamin does not match the known birthdate for Peter's son Benjamin. In the one census record in which I can find Benjamin, however, the indicated year of birth conflicts with the tombstone date and matches the year of birth for Peter's son. 3. William H. Loop - Thanks for your letter. First let me comment on your question about tradition linking the Lupp's to Holland. I have found that to be a rather pervasive tradition. It pops up on many lines. I think it came about for a number of reasons. 1) The German settlers would have called themselves "Deutch". 2) The established (generally English speaking) Americans of that time tended to lump the Dutch and German settlers of New York and Pennsylvania together as being "Dutch". 3) They arrived on ships that sailed from Rotterdam. I have yet to find any Loop's in America who were born in Holland. We have a Belgian family and a Swiss family, but no Dutch. Concerning your question as to the certainty of John Henry Loop's being the son of Philip Loop. It would be nice if we could find some primary source proving this. I would like to see the original of Philip's will. The abstract referenced in Philip's family group sheet lists a John Jacob as a son. I suspect strongly that this is John and Jacob. If you were to write away to Botetourt County for a copy of Philip's will that would be useful. I'll check to see if the Mormons have those willbooks on microfilm. I doubt that John Henry could be a son of Ludwig's son Christian who died in 1789. If Christian had any son, it was Christian Jr., in my opinion. We should probably also look for a will of John Henry in Roanoke county. As you know, some of Omer's information is quite good, and some of it is highly speculative, and it's hard to tell which is which, because he never listed his sources. 4. I finally imposed myself on someone to translate about a years' worth of Helmut Teibach's letters to me. I can read a German parish record, but that's about as far as my German goes. Since the early Lupp's in Germany are of interest to all of us, I thought I would show you the contents of his letters. One item that he sent me makes particularly interesting reading, so I have made it item 5 below. The rest of the material will appear as an appendix, before the family group sheets. The following story probably has more bearing on the etymology of the name Lupp then on the history of the family. Read back over the article in the April, 1987, Loop Scoop, concerning the origins of the name. Note that if you substitute the word "folk" or "person" or "man" for the name "Lupp" in the title of the following story, it makes a good deal of sense. Many folk legends concern ancient races or ancient folk that inhabit the land in one form or another. I think it somewhat ironic that the name Lupp is related to the old high German word meaning "to grow or increase", because, as you will read below the objects sacrificed to the Good Lupp were later turned into fertilizer. 5. [And here is the story Helmut sent me from the Mansfeld region historical reader, written in 1890]: The Honoring of the Good Lupp at Schochwitz The area around here seems to be the seat of a very strict pagan idolatry so that the traces of this have reached far beyond even into the Christian times. In Schochwitz hardly an hour away from the cloister at Hedersleben, there was a pagan culture which honored Saint Luppe, or the good Luppen. Even into the 15th century it remained untouched and withstood change through all the storms of time. The bishop Gebhard of Halberstadt in whose diocese Schochwitz was located was told about the existence of this idolatry because he didn't think it worth his while to go look for himself. His pious heart was angry about this loathsome custom and in his sacred religious zealotry he ordered two counts Gunther and Gebhard von Mansfeld in 1462 (this paper is still in existence) to get rid of this annoyance. The annoyance consisted of the fact that the simple people were sacrificing the bones of dead animals to a certain dead person who was called the Good Luppen. The bishop promised many indulgences, money, and blessings and the grace of God and all the saints. In coloquial speech in this area the memory of the good Luppen has not been extinguished. The hill on which this person was honored is still called today the Luppberg, or the Lupp mountain, the little forest on top is still called the Lupp forest, and the water that goes through the valley runs by the Lupp mill. The folk legend is still familiar with the place where once upon a time this idol stood. Next to the sacred grove there is a sacrificial place where immeasurable masses of animal bones were piled up to form a big bone mountain. It was just this bone pile that caused the anger of the Bishop of Halberstadt, but the indulgences and the forgiveness of sin which he promised did not remove the bone mountain. It remained into our century, and it wasn't until it was discovered that bones make an excellent fertilizer for the land that the hill was removed. Thousands of cartloads were taken away without any indulgences and any forgiveness of sins. Now the 1000 year old grove of bones has been cleaned up and has become farmland. But the legend of the Good Luppen has not yet been entirely lost. The old idol was saved from it's old sacred grove and was put into a Christian church. In the wall of the church at Mullerdorf there is an old sandstone of about 2 meters height with curious pictures that are very unusual. The people believe that this is the idol, the Lupp stone that came from the Lupp mountain. Appendix: Letters from Helmut Teibach: 30 MAR 1987 Dear Mr. Bennison, A few weeks ago I received some new information, which I had inquired about, concerning a family "Lupp" from the Bavarian Schwabia which is on the northern edge of the Alps, the Allgau. In this letter it is mentioned that the family Lupp, is an very old-time Schwabian family. I received a genealogy in which ends with the birth record of Nov 10, 1751 for Johann Melchior Lupp of the Evangelical Chruch of Gerolfingen near Nordlingen. Nordlingen is situated about 95 km southwest of Nurnberg in the bavarian part of northern Schwabia. On 26 MAR 1987 I was able to further inquire of this information and was able to make the photocopy which is enclosed with this letter. Of interest to you should be the oldest ancestor Johann Lupp, a shoemaker in Nidda, in Hessen. This town of Nidda can be found approximately 80 km east of Bad Marienberg. Since there have been some difficulties in obtaining all the information relating to Lupp's emigrating to America from Bad Marienberg, the possibility cannot be excluded that further information can be found in the town of Nidda. For me this possibility is also of great interest since the family of Lupp would have to have been in one of the two towns initially either Bad Marienberg or Nidda. I have made a map of that area and it is enclosed. With respect to the genealogy of Johannes Lupp/Troctelfingen: Balthas = Balthalzar Johann Caspar 18 JAN 1709 and the following: No further info to be found. Melchior married Anna Maria Vogelsanger and Johann Caspar Lupp married Anna Margaretha, cannot be easily sorted out. I think that they are children of Johan Caspar 18 JAN 1709 that resettled coming from a neighboring town. [I think we lost something in the translation here.] Furthermore there is a town near Bad Marienberg called Haiger, see map, and in this town was professionally active the schoolmaster Jost Lupp 1649 - 1676. The churchbooks of Haiger were destroyed by fire in 1723, the source is the Haiger Church meeting minutes 1630 - 1684. With respect to whether this ancestor can be considered as one of those emigrating to america this question canot be answered at this time and must still be further investigated. I thought I would let you know about this information at this time since the old Lupp family ancestors are of general interest to all American loop descendants. 4 JUL 1987 I have received thru a coincidence as well as through persistent investigation of the literature from the city library of Lauf (it is strange that I usually have success getting information this way) some information concerning the family Lubbe/Lupp which I wanted to send to you right away. My 80 year old mother comes for Sachsen, Mansfelder lake region where her ancestors on her father's side their roots. This region lies approximately 250 km east of Bad Marienberg near the university city of Halle on the Saale. This area was partially settled by Slavs in contrast to Bad Marienberg and the Westerwald. Once when she saw some books being offered at an antique dealer she was interested in one particular book, a reading book about the days of her childhood. This particular one was called "Heimatkundliches Lesebuch fur Mansfeldische Schulen" (the local regional historical reading book of the Mansfeld schools) published in Eisleben in 1890). In this book she found the excerpted report which I am enclosing with this letter entitled "Die Verehrung des guten Luppen bei Schochwitz" (The Honoring of the Good Lupp of Schochwitz). My own opinion is that the origin of the name Lupp/Lubbe in this case can be eliminated. This can be strengthened due to the fact that this family were known to be in the larger area of Westerwald (specifically Bad Marienberg, Haiger, Nidda and Herborn) very early on. Now let me get back to the original publication I received from the library just based on a hunch and was apparently somewhat successful. This is entitled the "Mitteilungsblatt des Herborner Altertums und Geschishtsvereins" which is the official publication of the Herborn Antiquarian and Historical Society, Number 1, 1954. It contains on page 33-37 the enclosed report, which I basically extracted focusing only on the information concerning the Lupps. According to this source an individual by the name of Contze Lueb was mentioned already in 1378 coming from the town of Herborn. This is info which tends not to support the Slavic origins of the name. Both of these things should be of great interest to the readers of the Loop Scoop. 4 OCT 1987 I'd like to get back to my letter of 4 JUL 1987 at this time. I mentioned in that letetr something about Contze Lueb from the year 1378. I have since then found out that at that time the "e" was a symbol that indicated a long drawnout proununciation such as a "u". Therefore this results in a sound of Lueb = Luup = Loop in English. I assume that this is relevant to you and all the readers of the Loop Scoop particularly since you would have trouble determining such info from so far away. [Here is the report excerpt from the Herborn historical journal enclosed in Helmut's letter]: Number 1, 1954, page 33, 35 part 36 part As I was photographing the Ballersbacher-Herborn-Seelbacher churchbooks, I came across a little leaflet in quarto format which seems to be very important for the town of Herborn and it's citizens. Not only are there numerous names of up to now unknown Herborn councilmen and political leaders of the 14th century but in addition many Herborn mayors are mentioned. It would be much too extensive to give you the entire material of that document so I will be content to give some of the more important aspects of each of the pages as an excerpt. All of these documents are exact copies of letters of sale of Herborn-Seelbacher chapel that were reported by the Herborn city scribe Seigfried Stohr 1537 from the original documents as one can see from the title of one of these: "The following copies of the letters of the chapel at Seelbach were written with diligence and illuminated by Siegfried Store the kaiser's city scribe of Herborn, in the year of Christ 1537 and are certified as being identical to the original letters." . . 9. Deed, page 9b and 10a: I, Contze, who is called Lueb Contze, lay assessor in Herborn, and I, Meckel, his conjugal housewife make known for us and our successors with this open letter [public letter, a letter that everyone can read], that we, in our good will (sane mind) and our healthy body, have sold and sell completely and own rightfully (belonging to us) from our own farm, which is located at Selbach and which Heymendorffer now is sitting on and who has farm and property and what belongs to it namely is our own quarter part (and the fourth share, which belongs to us), whether it is of house, of farm, of garden, of water, of pasture, of meadow, of wood (forest), of fields farmed or not farmed (in those days they had a three-fields-run = 1 year not cultivated, 1 year pasture, 1 year cultivated), of soil, and this quarter part we have sold [for] half a Malter (unit of measure) of corn money, half a Malter of oat money, a whole and a half michels hon (???? seems to be a unit of measure, too!), to be valid over all the years at every time all gewonlich (???[can't translate this]) is mentioned before namely Mister Ludwig F or who will become a chaplain there after him, all yearly gantz(??[can't translate this]) been valid enworde(??[can't translate this]), so the chaplain shall take to that the goods mentioned before namely for each a quarter part of the farm and property mentioned before and possess it unchecked from us or our successors. Here at the same time has been Heintz von Dillin, Mangollt von Hirbach and Hen Nettzbart, all of them lay assessors at Herborn. To certify the truth I, Contze, mentioned before, and I, Meckel, mentioned before, have asked the mayors of Herborn, Manegulden, mentioned before, and Heynen, the son-in-law of the writer, for that they have placed the town's seal on that letter, so that we [can] perceive the mayors. Anno [in the year] 1378 . . Finally let me suggest that some of the names of politcal leaders or city councilmen or their families mentioned here are as follows: . . Contz Lueb ...... the Familie Lupp author: Walter Baumann